We are currently going through the whole 'school shopping' thing to choose a primary school for Annie.

I'm torn between

School #1 - public/govt school, 130 students, average class size - 20, need to drive to school, reasonable variety of activities offered.

School #2 - catholics school, 600+ students, average class size - 29, can walk to school, large variety of activities offered.

Decisions decisions.

What are the differences in fees, if any, between the two?

It is generally accepted here that the catholic schools get the better results. They are often a bit difficult to get into as everyone wants their kids there.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I went to a Catholic school.

Generally over here good Faith schools are considered a cut above your non-faith ones when it comes to results.

Going from personal experience (and my time working at the Schools Inspection Agency) I'd say this is largely due to the fact that:

1) they tend to have a leg up in the "community" stakes (because there is often a couple of active church communities in the background adding weight to the schools own community)

2) Over here at least, they tend to attract the parents that have the time and inclination (and indeed often the money to enable both) to take an active interest in their kid's development. They don't however, have to put up with the ones that have too much money, because they all get packed off to private school. This means the teachers know they have parental support, and can also identify and help the kids who don't have parental support more.

Obviously you can get bad Faith schools as much as you can get good ones, but i must admit that if we have kids, my inclination will be to try and ensure that they go to a decent Christian school (Catholic or Heretic - doesn't matter really, I'm the first and Becks is the second).

If a decent one isn't around, then my inclinition will be towards whichever school seems to have the strongest sense of community (and the most pro-active parents).

Quite frankly my personal opinion is that everything else is largely secondary - what's the point of small class sizes and lots of activities if there's not the motivation on behalf of staff and parents to help kids make use of them?

Of course, all this is wonderfully easy for me to say as a non-parent innit

One of the ladies at our Church is a school teacher and I plucked up the courage to ring her tonight (she scares me a little... okay a whole lot). In the last 5 years she has been working as a relief teacher and taught at both Schools.

She told me straight up she'd not send her own children to either school and suggested a couple of alternatives that we look at. I'm going to visit them and see. Neither are withing walking distance if for some reason the car died or hubby had to take it to work. School #2 is walkable if dire necessity required it.

I'm sorry I forget, but is it Annie that has special needs, or is it Heidi? Either way, will they be going to the same school? If so, is any special assistance that's available at the school a consideration?

Yep, leechy, that's what I wondered re the fees. Over here, private schools are to some extent subsidised by the Ministry of Education as well, which reduces the gap further. As long as the school that's closest by shanks' pony provides good all-round education in a supportive atmosphere, and doesn't end up costing you guys several dozen arms and legs to keep up with and suits the budget --I'd say go for it.

You have to pay for government schools? Wow. We only have to pay for uniforms here, and primary school uniforms are very cheap - besides, it's not like you'd be able to get away with leaving your kid unclothed if it weren't for the need to buy uniform.

Having a school nearby does have social advantages, making it much easier to have little friends round for playdates.

My daughter goes to a CofE school, and the church bit is probably the only thing I dislike about it, but that's because it takes up such a huge amount of their curriculum time, leaving little time for music, art, drama and so on.

Small class sizes and a small school in general does help it feel a lot friendlier and there's more individual attention for your child, but means that it's more likely to have fewer resources (my daughter's teeny tiny school has good resources, but that's because it's in an area of high poverty with lots of access to grants and the like).

The only way to decide, really, is visit them both, with your daughter in tow, and ask tons of questions.

School #2, because I had to walk to school everybody else should.

(Hi).

Speaking from personal experience I wouldn't get too hung up on the public/private argument. I would certainly go with the word of mouth advice - I wish I had a few years ago.

To describe, we were fairly definite about private schooling and actually moved house so our daughter could access a pricey-ish ($1400/term) private school. Three years later and our daughter was 18 months behind her grade level in maths and there were behavioural issues. Concerns voiced fell on deaf ears and we eventually withdrew her. The thing that really concerns me with the private system is the lack of accountability - these schools can consistently fail to deliver and the only place you can go to complain is to the Independent Schools Board who may or may not act. (Or, in the case of for example, Catholic schools, the Catholic School Board etc. I have been advised that often the people who sit on these boards are also on school boards or are friendly with the staff at the school so often for these reasons alone, complaints go nowhere). I guess, bottom line is, you don't always get what you pay for. Interestingly, in our community, the problems at the school are well known at word-of-mouth level - so take whatever inside advice you can get on schools. We ended up (reluctantly) taking some inside advice to have a look around the local public school. To our surprise, it compared favourably with the private schools we had been viewing*, the classes were smaller than at the private school she had been attending and best of all, there are clear (Education Department) procedures on how any issues are to be handled. After the defensive way things were (not) handled at the private school, it's been a relief to have a transparent process.

In addition, we made the decision, with the money we were saving, to enrol our daughter in private tutoring. She's been at Kumon for only six months now and she is currently back at grade level with her maths and well ahead with English. I'd highly recommend the Kumon system whichever school you choose. Our idea is for her to win a scholarship to a private school for secondary schooling (very common for Kumon students) but there are plenty of other valid reasons for doing the Kumon thing - catching up, getting ahead, just making school a bit easier, giving kids confidence, teaching them good study habits.

So to summarise:

1. Sadly, there's no really good formal way to check up on a school's credibility** and often people at ground level are the most reliable source of information.

2. Paying a lot of $$ doesn't guarantee you anything

Hope this helps!

*caveat: it is known as one of the best public primary schools in the country, we are just dead lucky to have it here and I think you may be lucky to find a school of the same calibre elsewhere

** why, oh why aren't the LAN testing results for individual schools available publicly??

I'd be looking very very closely at what SN supports are offered. What sort of teacher aide hours (some private schools will have you fundraising to cover the cost), what sort of learning supports are offered?

We looked at the Catholic system and it offered less and what was offered was done on a school by school basis. So you had less comeback if the hours were withdrawn or if agreements were not honoured. At least in the public system when I am having a cow because my kid hasn't gotten what he is entitled to, I know that I am legally in the right. With the Catholic system, not so much.

That's a big difference in school size as well. Weirdly we had some of our worst experiences at smaller schools and now a large school is working OK. What's the SN population at the different schools? Is there an SEU? Does Victoria have advisory visiting teachers or the like for schools without SEUs? There's pros and cons to having an SEU -- if there's none, what are the playground provisions? How easy will it be for Annie to find a safe place if she needs to?

Some very good points Flora.

One thing weighing heavily in the public schools favour is the extra funding they get for Aides. The specific school we are looking at shares a campus with the local Special Ed. school and they do integration for some activities.

Annie is nurotypical (?sp?) but Heidi* who will be starting in 2011 will need an aide if she mainstreams. If Heidi needs a special ed school then this campus would suit us best.

We are already running into drama's with aides at Heidi's 3yo Kinder. They've been knocked back for funding as the class is not full - 2 vacant spots - so even though they've got 2 autistic kids and 1 adhd they have no aide. I've offered to front half the cost of the aide and we are waiting to hear if that helps.

Hubby has all but put his foot down that we choose the public school as it was the school he went to. I've had a couple of the parents of Annie's kinder friends tell me that they are glad I'm doing the research for them and they will pick the school we choose - good that Annie's friends would be at the same school but seriously this is the next 6-7 years of your childs life, think carefully about it peoples.


*Heidi is high functioning autistic, probably aspergers.

Crap, sorry for confusing the two. Braindead here.

That's appalling about the aides at kindy. That's a fair whack of SN kids for a teacher to handle.

No problems - I confuse my kids all the time

I'm shocked about the situation at the Kinder. Even with the teacher, her assistant and 3 parent helpers today it was overwhelming. They really, really need someone trained in SN kids to be able to step in and divert some of the more difficult behaviours. I can help with Heidi but have no idea for the other two.

My sister-in-law is a primary school principal at a public school. She thinks, all things being equal, smaller class sizes and a smaller school leads to better outcomes. But she stresses talking to the staff and parents of current pupils to work out the lay of the land.

I like the idea of a campus with options like the special school as long as the assumption is NOT SN=Unit kid no matter the needs of the kid

We're battling that one ATM.

Quick update.

We've enrolled Annie in the govt/public school which shares a campus with the Special Needs (SN) school.

Heidi's kinder is bending over backwards to try and fund an aide. I've also heard through the grapevine there may be funding available through a respite care group that need to give away money before the end of the financial year (30 June).

Coolness! I'm sure it feels pretty good to have the decision made.

I think you must choose the one that will fit Annie's need.If i were to ask i will pick the school #2 for the advantage that she can walk going to school.

Braaaaaaaaainzzz...

At this stage she could probably drive to school
Welcome carlyse!

Hi LeechBabe,
I am very happy that Annie is enrolled in govt/public school as In these govt/public schools a lot of activities are done.